V. VARFOLOMEEV - Our today's guest, a wonderful film director, a guest from Poland, Andrzej Wajda. Ban Weida, good afternoon.
A. Waide - Good afternoon.
V. VARFOLOMEEV - Thank you so much for coming. I know what your schedule is. What do you have to endure in Moscow all these meetings, speeches.
M. QUEEN - Interview.
V. VARFOLOMEYEV - You hold on, you are well done.
A. Waide - I came, because it was a radio, which I once already had 4 years ago. As soon as I found out that you want to meet me, I thought that it was obvious that I should be here. Thank you very much.
V. VARFOLOMEYEV - Marina for the film “Katyn” is coming today. I was at the first show yesterday. Not only me, our student Olga, the teacher writes: “I bow to Andrzej Waide for a wonderful movie! It was great to be in the crowded hall of the House of Cinema and feel like-minded. As long as such films will not be broadly distributed and there will not be a nationwide discussion, the story will be repeated, and there will be new Beslans. ” I am ready to subscribe to every word and I want to thank you for this film. Because this tape, affecting the problems, which are not very popular today in modern Russia. And therefore it is not surprising that this can be judged by various comments, that your tape caused irritation to someone, someone calls the film Katyn almost an anti-Russian film.
A. VAIDA - I think that this is already someone who is so maliciously expressed. This film is anti-Stalinist and I think it is very clearly shown. This is a historical film. In addition, it seems to me that the presence in this film of such a character, which is performed by Sergei Garmash, is in a sense also my statement on this subject. I think that under the pressure of this Stalinist system there were also Polish officers to the same degree as the Russians and Ukrainians. In short, the society of the former Soviet Union.
V. VARFOLOMEEV - I will tell those who have not seen the film, and this is the majority, unfortunately, that Garmash is playing an envoy saving ... No? I did not understand these marks of distinction. He plays a Soviet officer who rescues a Polish family.
A. Waide - He plays a Soviet gunner. This is the moment when the war with Finland continues and he expects to be sent to the front. It seems to him that he will never return from this front and offers the wife of a Polish officer, with whom he lives in an apartment, and he knows that the wives of Polish officers will be taken somewhere deep into the Soviet Union. He offers her a fake marriage. She refuses. Because she says: my husband is among these officers who are in the camp. And her husband was in a camp in Kozelsk. But he believes that inevitably such a fate awaits her. This is a true story that I read in one of the memories. And combined with another story, also real. Where another officer saves the wife of a Polish officer and her child. When the NKVD arrives, he says that they do not live here. This enscade pretends that he seems to have believed, and when he closes the door, then this wife and child they save their lives by going through the back door.
M. Koroleva - In fact, you answered one of the questions from our listeners. Did Sergey Garmash have a prototype? It turns out that there was a real character. There were two of them who became the prototypes of this man. But the question is for you, because for you it is also a very personal story. Your father died at Katyn.
A. Waide - Not in Katyn. He was in Starobelsk in the camp. Among those officers who died.
M. Koroleva - One of our listeners on the Internet also asks you a question: “Why, if so, why did you not shoot a film about Katyn before? Why now?"
A. Waide - Between 1945 and 1989 there was not even a speech about it. Because the basis of the Polish-Soviet friendship could not be such an event as a Katyn crime. And so the interpretation was such that this crime was committed by Fascist Germany. And this interpretation all this period existed. And at that moment, when it was already possible, Poland became an independent country, the difficulty was this: we were looking for what the very first film about Katyn should look like. How to choose heroes, what fragments from their lives. I must say that not a few, but more than a dozen scenarios were created. And actually the one that was carried out is almost entirely based on ready-made notes, memoirs, memoirs and scenes of dialogues that are present there. Therefore, I did not make one man and one woman, but I made 4 stories to cover more of this material.
M. Koroleva - Another question on the Internet: "What sources did you use in your work?"
A. Waide - A lot of memories of women. Not only the wives of these officers wrote, they left their memories, but also their daughters. I think that from the fact that the daughters remember the stories of mothers, because I have to say a very curious thing. Three million viewers in Poland watched this movie. And on the street where someone meets me, this crime is incredibly present in the mind. How families remember this. How much is said about it. And so these memories gave me the most. How would the female characters give me. As for the men, when for the first time in 1941 they excavated these graves, it turns out that all the documents were left on the bodies of the officers, they also kept some records. They wrote their notes. So we very clearly know exactly how the events took place. And mostly I drew from this.
V. VARFOLOMEYEV - I would like to note that, despite what Andrzej Wajda is now saying, the film is not so straightforward and it seemed to me that in the film you, as the author, are your own position, firm confidence in how all these events happened in Katyn you did not express. You are showing both the archive film and the German side and the Soviet Stalin. You can imagine both positions. It seemed to me that there is the final point there, of course, there is during this death conveyor, of course, yes. But in general, it is done unobtrusively. In Russia, not everyone believes that the Soviet forces committed a crime in Katyn. For example, one of our listeners, Dmitry Konstantinov, writes: “Tell me, how long will you and your compatriots still poke around in this wound - Katyn? I wonder what you want from us, Russian need? What are you attached to your Katyn? ”
A. Waide - Because this is a Stalinist crime. There is no doubt about this. And I saw all the materials that were previously collected. After Poland got its freedom, President Gorbachev handed over documents that are absolutely sure to prove. Then Yeltsin sent documents to Warsaw. From which it is clear how Beria demands a solution to the question of the liquidation of these camps. And then the document is known all over the world, even signed by Stalin and members of the Politburo, where he simply confirms the verdict, the execution. What was previously proposed is liquidation. After these documents there is nothing to look for.
V. VARFOLOMEYEV - Let it be so, Pan Weid. Why dig into it. Sorry. That was almost 70 years ago.
A. Waide - I think it should. This is an indelible part of Polish history. I think of Russia as well. And I have to say that when we made films such as the film about the camp in Auschwitz, the film “Channel”, films where the action is played during the German occupation, the strange thing is, these films did not create, did not aggravate the situation, did not create conflicts. These films contributed to the fact that our Polish-German conflicts, as it were, burned out, subsided. I think there is no other way. If you hide something, you lie, and tell a lie, this is not the way.
M. KOROLEVA - Pan Vaida, the confessions made from the Russian side are enough for you. You remembered that Yeltsin actually handed over the documents. This is enough for you, or you and the Polish people need Russia to loudly apologize to Poland. Say, the new president Medvedev.
A. VAIDA - It seems to me that something else is important to us. I want to know if there are any documents on the basis of which my father was killed. Do they exist? If they exist, then I think those families that are affected should receive these documents. Now, if censorship had not blocked the way, then this film could have been made 20-30-30 years ago, and then it would have moved the whole question into the past. So it is not only our fault that just now. But now it turned out that now it is possible.
V. VARFOLOMEYEV - Now we will ask our listeners a question. Personally, you need films about the dark pages of the past of our country, above all. For example, such as "Katyn".
V. VARFOLOMEYEV - By the way, in this connection, recalling the film, there was an episode in front of the cemetery, a conversation between two sisters. One of whom wants to write the truth on the tombstone about how his brother died, to indicate the exact date. And for that she threatens, and we see that she threatened for it. The second says: well, why are you. This is a thing of the past, are you on the side of the dead? And the second sister answers: no, I am not on the side of the dead, I am on the side of the dead and against the murderers.
M. KOROLEVA - Pan Vaid, another question that came from St. Petersburg from Olga: “Please tell me, what feelings does this film evoke in young Poles? Does he help forgive the Russians or cause hatred for the current Russian people? ”
A. VAIDA - From the very beginning, my intention was not to create a conflict. Just just present a picture of the truth. This is not a film that was created to lead a discussion with someone. Argue. This is not a newspaper, where a topic suddenly appears. I wanted to make this movie in a serious way. Far more women who are alive than men who were killed. I talk more about them. Because I remember how my mother was still waiting for my father after the war. Because the father’s name was not in the Katyn list. There was a surname, but with other initials. Of course, this caused her even more concern. I wanted to show it. In Poland, they took this film very seriously. And the younger generation, because such a question arises, if I appeal to the younger generation, it may be in their style to make a film, a film of some kind of action. No, it seemed to me that this film, I, as an old director, can do, which says goodbye to this topic. Which accompanied me all my life. I wanted to do this in the most serious way. I wanted to show it, and I think it was possible, I showed the system. She is without a face. This system without a face, just doing something. They do not excite anything against themselves, these people who participate in this system, they are just cars, they are part of the car. It is terrible that this machine eliminated many more citizens of the Soviet Union.
V. Varfolomeev - By the way, in fact, the shooting scene lasts quite a long time. But you have not shown, in my opinion, a single face of those who shot. These are faceless cars with pistols. They have no face.
A. Waide - I think that was the way it was. And there is a confirmation, there are lists of those who performed it. We even have a list of recipients. Who what and how much money was paid for this work.
V. VARFOLOMEYEV - In Russia, they also make films about the joint history of our two countries. Russia and Poland. Last year there was a premiere, only long-standing stories, the picture “1612”. And that film was created by the state order. That is, it was necessary to promote the victory of Russian troops over the Poles 400 years ago. Your movie "Katyn" he was shot by the state order? Did the Kaczynski brothers ask you to take off this tape?
A. Waide - No, this is my business. Between me and my parents. My father, who was killed and the mother, who really suffered. She would have suffered less if she knew that her father was dead. Worst of all was this concern. People came back after the war, so this is my business between me and this event. My problem was just what script to choose, what to show on the screen. That was my problem. As for money, in Poland money from three sources comes from the film. And this film demanded more money. Part of the institute gives cinema. This is part of the Ministry of Culture and Art. This system is the same as in Western countries, where there is a law on cinema, which supports national cinema.
V. VARFOLOMEYEV - Also, probably, business gives money?
A. VAIDA - Yes, from the Ministry about 20% is obtained somewhere. More public television, or private television adds. Just in this case, not public television. And you are looking for private money for those who would like to join the film. So this money is not from one pocket.
V. VARFOLOMEYEV - I am glad that yesterday's film was not duplicated. And there were subtitles, and the Polish language was heard. And besides all the others, there was one painfully familiar word that unites our two peoples, you also have the concept of “intelligentsia”. It was in this movie. In your opinion, let us leave the war nowadays, representatives of the intelligentsia, cultural and scientific figures, should we somehow participate in social and political life. Try to change something. Not inside their profession, but in general in the country where they live.
M. QUEEN - And what kind of a relationship should they have with a higher authority?
V. Varfolomeev - We are now arguing about this topic.
A. WAIDA - The problem is that in Poland the role of the intelligentsia was so great, because Poland disappeared from the map of Europe for a hundred years. And it existed only in imagination, in the head, in the soul, in the heart of those people who thought that some day it would return. Fidelity to the language. In these three sections in each of the parts spoke in different languages. All documents were in different languages. Still, Polish remained. There were great writers, the artists who represented our history, our past, including a critical eye. If Poland survived, not only because of these, they were emanations, they were great. At a time when the country lives under a democratic system, whether the intelligentsia really should play the same role. In the end, the majority chooses their more representative, some accept, others do not. I was a senator in the first parliament after my release. And with me were the senators two of the most prominent actors, theater director, three writers. And in the next senate, we disappeared like the entire senate. Why? - because we have not been selected for the second time. Because the society was looking for other representatives. They believed that others should represent them. And in this regard, the intelligentsia has a harder role. Can society completely get rid of a group that evaluates from a moral point of view what happens through art, through science. Watches carefully what happens. And she not only appreciates, she has some authority. It seems to me that we need such a group.
V. Varfolomeev - The intelligentsia should not be silent?
A. VAIDA - Should not. But at the same time, you have to say to yourself that from all sides, all political groups seem to want to make it clear that you are not an authority at all.
V. VARFOLOMEYEV - There are always a lot of people who want to silence. Thank you very much. The results of our vote. 86% believe that we need such films.
M. QUEEN - 14% believe that such films are not needed.
V. VARFOLOMEYEV - Unfortunately, due to the lack of wide distribution, probably, the vast majority cannot see Katyn on the big screen. But today showed ZDL, Marina, you go. What time does it start?
M. QUEEN - At 19 o'clock.
V. VARFOLOMEEV - I know that tickets are not available. Yesterday from the experience of the House of Cinema I can say, try, come. Find extra tickets. I myself spent someone yesterday, come through. Yesterday, many stood in the aisle. We sat on the steps, and I think no one regretted it. Thank you very much. Andrzej Wajda is visiting Echo of Moscow.
V. VARFOLOMEEV - Our today's guest, a wonderful film director, a guest from Poland, Andrzej Wajda. Ban Weida, good afternoon.